Hey, guys. Welcome to electronic dance money. You’re number one business resource for making money as electronic musicians and producers. All right, welcome everyone to Episode five Electronic dance money. I’ve got a really awesome episode in store today. Um, my guest today is Sam Heights. Garay is that that’s pretty much where you write. Ironically, people just
say the whole name when they meet me, which is kind of weird, but I just roll with it,
okay? That totally works. Yes. So, um, you are mainly a producer for E g m. Pop. You also do mixing for just does genres, Or do you kind of stretch into Hoppus? Well, yeah. Kind across was over because a
lot of my background and what I do now currently is a lot of music licensing. So with music lights and you’re doing multiple genres, so I’m covering like, r and B hip hop pop. You know, iam things like that. But mainly when I’m kind of like riding or pitching stuff right now, it’s been a lot of like, pop udm stuff.
Okay, Cool. And yeah, that’s primarily why I’m having you on today for licensing, and we’ll get into that in just a little bit. But you also run Neverland retreats, which is epic. I’ve been I’ve been on the site for Oh man, I was on there for, like, 30 minutes, just scrolling through stuff, looking at people’s reviews, looking at the videos. It sounds amazing. Can you get into that just a little bit? Because I think Neverland retreats is something that every any producer should be doing. I see anyone who’s involved in music, especially Popper ADM. I think can learn a lot from that retreat and what you give to it.
Yes, I mean, basically, it’s a company that me and my copays partner started, and we run it out of, Ah, we do it. We do events in Costa Rica in this little surf town called Massara, and what we’re doing is will fly in kind of like music execs, like platinum songwriters, producers, Grammy winners, things like that. And we throw it like a weeklong workshop in the jungle on the Pacific Coast, which is amazing, like you’re literally the jungle. So you’re gonna see like iguanas, you know, torrential of you go on the boat, you’ll see like dolphins and whales of stuff It’s crazy, and it’s a small, intimate group of about 50 people that we kind of pick from the applications we get because it is like a screen process. We want people. I’m a certain caliber of talent to be out there with the mentor. So we feel like they’re not wasting their money or time, and the mentors aren’t wasting, you know their time is, Well, once you get that group together, it’s just it’s amazing, dude. So like, uh, over the we’ve been running a company for about five years now. And over the five years we’ve had about like, I think the numbers about 16 or 17 people either like get placements from there or sign in management deal or sign of publishing Dio or something of that nature, you know? So it’s been pretty successful, so they’re on the E m thing like the last when we just did. We had ah, Nicholas for a long out there who’s worked like vhe TV. Okay, all that and he was just super awesome, like writing so honestly, people were going on adventures like going a TV and in the mountains in the jungle, so it is definitely out of the box kind of work shock. It’s way different from something you’ll find like an Ascot Expo are asking explore. Um, you know he needs other kind of conventions. Where you just in the hotel doing panels for hours and then, you know, it’s kind of it. Maybe it’s like a party afterwards, whatever. But there’s usually so many people. You don’t get that like 101 time like like we do here. We’re basically all living in this hotel that we buy out for the week. So it’s just anyone that’s at the hotel is part of our group. It’s a pretty awesome experience. Not, you know, we’re doing another one coming up in November. We have Andrew Gold from downtown Music Publishing. He’s like the VP of A and R for North America. There he’s back. He came. The last one had so much fun that he’s like a man. I would love to come the next one, and I’ll probably bring out some people songwriters. So it started the point now where it’s like people are advertising it, you know, for us on our behalf and bringing their friends out there that are like these other planets, songwriters, execs and whatnot. So, yeah, it’s been amazing.
It’s just catching on like wildfire. I love it. I love the idea of being the process behind it all. It’s it’s awesome to get a group of musicians together and stickum on in Highland and be like, All right, let’s let’s learn some stuff and let’s work together. And what’s great about it to is the fact that there are days where you guys are getting together in your writing songs. So you’re learning on your not just learning from these panels that you’re doing in these lectures, it’s on top of it. After that, you guys were going to get together and we’re all gonna place, um, instruments. We’re gonna record some shit and make something up. And, like I was saying to you like a couple weeks ago, that is how you write a hit song. You pull these musicians together that are very talented, and they go, Oh, what do you know? Well, I know how to do this. What do you know? And you guys come together and you just write something that is so unique. I’m sure it gets done quick to cause it’s just such a relaxed environment. Very created, everyone’s
chilled, and the great thing about it is it tends to happen organically. Like, honestly, this This last couple years, we’ve never really had, like, a formal Okay, at this time we’re going to sit down and do like a song or anything. It’s just people hanging out by the polar in the jungle, going on tours, whatever. And then they just connected it like a man. Let’s write a song. And so this last one we did. People were up to, like two or three in the morning, just in the hotel rooms of a recession, just jamming out in writing songs like What? Nick? And then we had Al Sherrod Lambert, who’s, um, he’s produced like on the 1st 2 year on the ground albums, and he’s worked with, like Kelly Rowland and a bunch of other big names. You look among his credits, but those guys were just so awesome in home Older like, Hey, let’s just write some songs with you guys and it just like the organic process toward it doesn’t feel like, Oh, I’m at this workshop, so I have to, like, hang out with the attendees and write songs like They were the ones offering Be like Let’s just Jam, Do you Know Like It Was So Cool. Well,
that’s what’s great to is just to reald a jam. No goal in sight. It’s just let’s go in, Let’s write a song and have fun just jam out. We’ll see what we put together, and I’m sure just it’s very organic. Everything just flows and it’s super nice. And what I was also talking to you about what I love is so not only with when you write a song with someone is very. It’s an intimate feeling, your urine, an intimate space with each other and you guys are kind of your opening up a side of you that most people probably don’t see and even more so when you guys were doing your quote unquote adventurers. Can you get a little bit more into that? Because I think all of this bonding experiences you get to know these people over the weak. You write some music with them, and then you’re going on these adventures and maybe overcoming some fears and builds this relationship that you will never forget. And now you’ve grown your network and not just a network. You’ve created a family and friends that will come together when the retreat is over 100%.
I mean, some of so some of the adventures that we actually have scheduled, I guess that you can do is take a horseback ride through like the actual jungle, like going up in the mountains for a couple hours and what else we have. We have a zip lining through the jungle, which is great, and then the main one that people like to do is a T V tours, which are awesome because you’re literally just shredding it on a for Miller through the jungle, going up the mountains and stuff, which is awesome. And it’s right like you build those genuine experiences. It’s it’s It’s hard to, I guess, experience. Unless you’re there because it’s not like doing a tour here in the States where it’s all right for more regulated. And I got a list, you’re literally in the jungle. And so you’re sharing this adventure like a story I have is like me, Nick and one of the other attendees. This’ll last one. We were just like Do Let’s just go right to a TVs in the dark in the mountains and let’s see what happens. And we’re like, Okay, so I just riding, like, you know, in the dark, the mountains in the jungle with all you got to little A TV headlights And, you know, it’s like pitch dark. There’s no streetlights. Their jungle. Um so it’s cool. Things like that are, you know, some people talk about like, Oh, man, we got caught in the bank. You again. You’re in the rainforest. It could rain. It could be sunny all day and then rain for, like, 20 minutes in the thunderstorm So people would be like, Oh, we got caught in the rain, you know, with all these people. And it was a crazy time and, you know, storming are. But it’s just like so fun you don’t think about like it’s not here in the States. Like when you get caught in the rain. It’s an inconvenience, almost being one with nature and building those bonding experience with people you are, and it puts everyone on a level playing field like you may be hanging out with some platinum producer. But if we’re also if I’m stuck in the rain, you’re stuck in the rain like we’re hanging out. Like now we’re just chilling.
That’s how you build long lasting relationships and you’re you’re there for five days,
five nights, six days, kind of total. And, I mean, for example, like you mentioned about the bonding relationships. I mean literally this week, I had one of the attendees from our last last year, November event, come into town and he was just traveling around. And he’s like, I’m gonna come through Austin. I’m like, Do great. Ah, you stayed at my place one night and then one of the other nights he was here, I invite amount to the studio in the late cause. We had a big Fourth of July party, and I mean, even last night, I was texting with one of the attendees from last November about going to Nashville to visit her and like writing some songs. So you’re generally building relationships with people, not just from the U. S. But literally all over the world, like the guy who came in. He’s from New Zealand. So we it’s crazy to see how the company has gone from the first year was just kind of our friends locally in, like Austin in San Antonio, in around Texas, area to light. Now we’re getting people from, like, you know, Germany, New Zealand, Canada. It’s literally a worldwide thing now where people are coming in. So it just kind of blew my mind.
On top of that, too, is when you’re working with these big artists or even up and coming artists who have you concede that they had. There is a big opportunity. They’re going to be someone who is probably gonna be full time with music or they’re gonna get a write great music that a lot of people are gonna enjoy when you build relationships with those kinds of people they helped build you up to. I mean, if you’re smaller artists and you’re working with them, or let’s say you’re both on the same playing field, but one blows up, that person’s probably not going to forget about you, especially if you’re staying in contact with with them and you have a good relationship with them. You just helped build each other up, which is extremely important in music. I think it’s extremely important in pop and E G m because you don’t see that a ton. You do see there are kind of people can butthead sometimes and get jealous because one person is bigger than the other or someone knew them when they were smaller, and they feel like there’s a lot of entitlement. And so it’s great if you can build these relationships and you have these people that really help each other build each other. Especially like you’re saying, If there’s a platinum artists there, that goes, Oh, you wanna go write a song with someone who might not have any crates? But they’re like, Yeah, let’s go fucking right song and you jam with that person there, like you are fucking great. They might bring you on for a project. Next thing you know, you could sell platinum records. So it’s
I mean, we’ve had sink opportunities, which I’m sure going to later. But like just for example, so me and my business partner, we do a lot of seeing stuff and so two of the attendance from one of our past event and he was looking for a certain sound and a certain type of production, and so he brought in this was like months after the event, like he’s like, hit him up because they happen to be in L. A. They were traveling and they ended up think writing like two or three different songs, whatever. And those songs are getting place like on shows for Fox. They’re getting placed on stuff for sports, things like and so, like, they’re generally like making money because of that connection they had with my business partner who was there because, you know, we all met there and he liked him, and they have to be in L. A. At the time. So it just worked out. It’s like planting seeds. You’re planning these relationships, the seed. So any of the people that have gone in the past pick up the phone and call me. I have no reason not to pick up the phone and be like, How can I help
you? Like what you working on? That’s super important to, especially if you’re running a business is if you have cause, I mean basically have clients coming in and doing your workshop, and it’s important for you to help them however you want. If you are putting your hand out and you’re reaching out in saying, Hey, I can help you out with whatever you need, let me know and they take the time you even take the time to help them out. They’re going to tell even more people about it. They’re even more excited for the next retreat to go to, and it just it builds this bond that they appreciate everything that you’re doing, and they see that they see that you’re actually wanting to help them, especially if they’re smaller artists. There’s so much more appreciative of that. And, ah, that’s it’s very important when you’re running a business like that to have that kind of relationship. I think it’s important for producers to, you know, um, have that connection with, like, fans. A lot of a lot of producers are separated from their fans. But if you look at Dylan Frances, I mean, he’s so good at creating great content to cater for his fans. That’s and he brings you into his life in his world and opens it up a little bit more, and it makes you feel connected to him so much more. You like, you feel like you know Dylan Frances, just by If you sit on his instagram for an hour, you’re like, Oh, I know exactly who this kind of guys I could totally get along with them. Um, And actually, in my last episode I had my buddy Ah, Richie from Six Street Music and he he does twitch streams Pretty is monetizing his twitch streams, which is incredible. And he’s just doing feedback. So he’s created this community of not just fans but producers that come in on Sunday, Tuesday and Friday. I believe it is, and they just send their tracks into him and he gives them feedback and he But he creates this environment of like, this welcoming environment where he wants to help you. He calls you by your name, and it’s It’s just it’s very welcoming. It’s super nice, and he’s connecting himself to his fans in a way that most producers don’t even think to do or care
for. Right, so it’s crazy. Bring it up. So my business partner actually does that. He has like a whole other company. He runs in the side besides this one, and he’s very more like that. He’s very more on the social, whereas I’m kind of like behind the scenes. I guess I just I don’t like attention that much, but, uh, he runs this company called. That’s on Instagram Just music industry Contact. And he does that like egos critique sessions. He brings on people that have come to our past events like VP’s producers and stuff. And they do like FaceTime video Web sessions or whatever you call it, you know, and the answer questions give critiques. He also throws like song writing contest. I think one month he gave, like, $1500 away just this long. So yeah, so he’s taken like, you know, the money he’s making from said company and actually given it back to artist in helping them out. And you know, So he’s doing this great thing and he does that like a post you know, tidbits and great content videos on his thing toe, Um, you know, just educate, but also just bring awareness to what he’s doing is well, you know, I got to get better out of myself. I’m not that instagram guy so much, but I see the benefits of it since he’s been doing it, you know, And even if it’s not like money generating like a specific company, at least building the awareness about like what I’m doing. So maybe I could potentially get, like, bigger clients and more work. You know, I’m saying, just so people know what you’re doing is like that thing. What’s that saying? Out of sight, Out of mind. And that’s purposely why I take flights toe, you know, New York or L A. On the regular, just like stay in front of people whereas they see you. Yeah, I need to be doing that more on social deceiving myself.
You know, I’m headstrong about this, created all about creating content, my instagram and posting three times a week. And I’m actually why did an episode Episode three about branding? And it’s bringing mostly focused around Instagram how to brand yourself on social media and, um, you know, I just hit a brick wall last week on shit, I think Monday or Wednesday where I think I just got shadow band. Dude, it is divorced. Instagram’s algorithm is fucked up for businesses because I’m in a very niche audience. I’m help. I’m all about helping producers. So the things I’m posting on in specifically e g m producers. So it’s, I mean, I can’t niche down any further than that unless I went to a specific sub genre with a medium. I’m not gonna do that cause then I’m too niche down. So my issues I’ve there are there. How maney hashtags can I do for producer and e GM or GM producer? There’s not many. And so that to my that’s who I’m cornering. So when I have a topic that I’m posting about on Monday, Wednesday or Friday, I have these specific hashtags and I may repeat them. Instagram’s new algorithm is detecting those repeated and they’ll fucking shadow ban U. So they basically block you out from Hashtags. So only the people following you are against your post. No one who you posed in your posters and game show up on Hashtags. So recently I’ve noticed my reach on my hashtags has been significantly reducing in the past two weeks. I was hitting like four or 500 people on Hashtags. All of a sudden it dropped to like 60 and I was the fuck is going on here now. Zero person is getting seen on the ones that come off like when is that s so there’s there’s some. There’s some things you have to do to kind of counter it. One you can reach out to them and see what they say is causing it. There’s other posts of like you need. You need to be communicating with the community more. So go into the tax and talk on people like basically comment on things. Follow more people. So if you’re not following enough people because you need to be active in the ages, you need to be engaging more than just posting content and making it just about you. So I’ve been going on and I’ve been following more people have been commenting on more stuff like more stuff on, and that does help to actually get you new followers to. I’ve noticed that. But then there’s other things, like stop using Hashtags all together for a little while, as well as like deleting some hash tag. So I got to test some things out and play with it and see if I can get it fucking reversed. But this is the wall that I’ve hit, and it’s It is branding on social media and just posting on social media is difficult. It’s not easy. Facebook’s fucked because they won’t reach you to anyone unless you pay. Instagram’s difficult because of their algorithm is so tricky and you can’t have too many words on your posts. And then you can’t be using too many of the same hash eggs. You can’t be using too many hashtags, period. There are so many rules involved with all this shit that it’s very difficult to grab your corner of the market and keep it. But once you get it, it’s easy because once you have that corner, want to hit that 10,000 dedicated actual followers. It’s easy you get hundreds of likes. People are consuming your content. What’s difficult is this star like when you’re starting out cause I’m just about to hit 300 followers on Answer those air true followers. Those are people who aren’t just following an un following on Those are people who consume my content. They save my posts. I I get more saves than likes recently all over. Yeah, people will save the like. I like you’re dropping good tidbits and if people want to come back to it exactly, so that’s and that’s how I kind of based all of my post. So I know if a Post is doing well, fits King saves cause saves mean Oh, this is content that people like they want to come back to And even if they don’t follow me now, they might come back to the post later and go let me click on his profile in their gang. Go Oh shit, There’s like, there’s ah 100 posts here that are nothing but tips and tricks. I’m gonna follow this guy and it just kind of snowballs from there. But yeah, it’s it’s very difficult to figure out what you’re gonna posed being consistent with the times you’re posting and there’s a lot involved with. It’s a process. I’ve been running my instagram for almost a year now, and I’m finally understanding. I fucking hate Instagram. I never used it prior to the year for a year ago, and I’m finally starting to kind of understand it. A Susie understanding. They changed the algorithm, so let’s ah, let’s kind of start to transition over into what you do. So your primarily doing sink licensing or like wood. Is there a difference between licensing single say, where they basically
licensing is your will sink license, whatever you call it. You’re just, you know, producing music or creating music for the purpose of singing it. Sinking it with, um, you know, moving pictures, TV, film commercials, whatever are you can also seeing toe like, uh, you know, for radio spots or anything like that, You know, all kind of goes in the same thing. Um, but that’s mainly and I and I still do like stuff like labels overseas, Like we’ve done stuff with, like, spin in and, you know, um, trap nation and strange fruits and all that stuff. But I would say the majority of the money I made with music is definitely from licensing and, uh, you know, reason being it just cause you get, like, upfront sink money. Like, if they’re gonna, like, place it in the movie, replace it in TV thing usually, um, long is your contracts, you know, pretty good whatever you’re gonna get, like, money up front, and they’re gonna pay whoever owns the master. They’re gonna pay whoever owns the composition part. So it’s like two parts. Most places that I’ve dealt with want to do is called like it like it all in by I think I think the tournaments for it. It’s basically they’re gonna give you, like, one lengths, one lump sum of money to cover both ends and just put it, you know, 50 50 for both, whatever you wanna call it, so it’s pretty good. I mean, there’s so many like library agencies to like licensing agencies that you can pitch your music, too. Um, and then they’ll you know. Obviously, they’re gonna take a cut, but their job is to basically just go there. Team is all day just pitching it to TV shows, pitching it for movies, pitching for ads and then you know they’ll give your revenue and then, you know, they’ll keep a little for themselves, Whatever. Whatever the contract is, there’s a lot of companies out there, like just name a few like that I’ve worked with was like First Calm West, one UK, Um, my friend, my best partner with the position music a lot. I worked with spirit production music. Um, and you know, I’ve had placements that are still generate money from, like years ago. Like me songs that I’ve made, they’re still getting place today like I mean a lot of
your border orders. Can you let the listeners know about some of your credits? Because your credits are fucking unbelievable. Personally, if anyone’s listening right now, just Google. Sam Height is saying I am being Sam Grey. Same great. And I’m going to lick up Sam Garay g a r A y Yeah, g a r a y. Look at his fucking credits because they’re ridiculous.
I mean, I’ve done like stuff for Netflix for the Chelsea Handler showed and chopped keeping the Kardashians. We play some a lot of like sports stuff. Like surprisingly, some hip hop tracks. We don’t have been played like a lot of golf, which is crazy, like year after year did always get like I see golf show up, but it’s crazy. Um, I’ve done me with this partner done some stuff for Universal last year. We did the ending score for that movie. Dark Web unfriended Um, I did some music for another hormone to come out with last year. Lions Gate. Ah, hell Fest came out on CBS Films Lions Gate and was in the theaters, so it’s cool to like, get those. I like doing those custom gigs where they hit you up like a man. We need think specifically for this one movie or for this one thing or like a score Tamara theme song. You know, we don’t theme songs as well to for shows, because I don’t know it kind of like your catering to what the director envisions, like part of that creative process. And don’t get me wrong. I like making the other songs that kind of more general because those gonna be placed across like, what the fuck? Yeah, like, you know, like some of these songs I’ve had have been, you know, like I said, we made it maybe 56 years ago, and they’re still getting place today over various platforms, whether it’s, you know, some show on Bravo or some show like on Netflix or something, you know. So it’s just generating income, which is great
with producers. I think they need to look more into How do I How do I take my song and how can I make that more passive? How can I make a song and it and obviously a lot of producers they what they envision is, well, I just make one hit song. It’s gonna give many 1,000,000 plays on Spotify. I’ll blow up and that’s how may I make my money or, you know, I’ll, uh, I’ll, A song will blow up and I’ll start going on tour, and that’s where I’ll make a lot more money. And yes, that is true. That can’t happen. It has happened, and a majority of touring artists, they make their money from tour. They get a big trunk of money for their shows. But getting into that that corner of the game of the market is very difficult in a lot of producers don’t start out or they don’t make it. Just by that, they they figure out, How can I take what I’m doing the studio and make every little bit passive income? How can I? Can I write a song in License it? Because if you get into that headspace, yeah, you start to spread your cards out. You’re not relying on just getting a song to blow up and hoping for the best, or you’re not relying on the next tour. Possibly if that’s ever gonna come and your because if you’re so focused on getting the next song to blow up so that you can go on tour. You’re gonna waste 10 years of your life. You may never get there. Yeah, it’s Ah.
I mean, before you get it. I guess that mellis man, just I know you mentioned Streaming and yeah, the Unless you own the Masters on streaming like you’re not really making a lot like that’s what we’re fighting for now in Congress and all that is trying to get, like, more money for writers and publishers and all that stuff like you know, you’re making That’s what these labels are winning with the master stuff cause they most majority the time based on contracts they’re going on the Masters, whatever you know. So they’re gonna make exponentially more than the writers are for. The songs are making so, like literally 67 times more. That’s not exaggeration. That’s just actual fact. That’s what the numbers are looking like, you know, So I can tell you, like I’ve had idiom songs that have streamed millions of players on Spotify and those checks or like not that not that big. They’re not as big as you think they would be. You know something on YouTube? They’re not as big as you think they would be. Even when it comes to the licensing thing. Like, you know, we had lunch last week, and I show Would you like some of my statements from you know, that that chop show, for example, that stream Africa. How many times on who use 89,000? Yes, some crazy amount. Like that On who? And
it was like pennies. It was a penny. My fucking judge Rock. Now, full disclosure
on that song. I don’t think it was like, 10% or something of that song, but compared to what you make on that same song when it airs on TV, Like what? The show Bravo is, you know more so that’s considered, like, a broadcast player. Whatever versus a streaming play. So what I’m saying Even the stream number effects, Not just regular song, that effects like the licensing things. I did a show. I did a music for that for a show on Netflix, and I thought the backing was gonna be pretty decent. And then I got my ASCAP statement, you know, for the performance, whatever part of it. And I was like, Oh, this is nothing at all like, you know. So that’s why we’re fighting so hard on that thing. That’s a big point. I just want to go into it because it generally does Effect, like your bottom line is a songwriter, you know?
Yeah, I Well, I think this is a very important point to make, especially now, kind of at the beginning before we get into things. And, Well, that’s why I’m saying like you that this is the point of the podcast is I want to bring these people on who have monetized these things. Um, whether it’s a shit ton of money or just a little bit of money, it doesn’t matter, because if there’s any money involved, if you spread your cards out across all of these things and your consistent with it, all the income builds up over time, pennies will build up if you’re because if you’re relying just straight on. Like I said, you’re trying to be a big producer. You just rely on trying to make a big hit song on, and then you get a to where you could waste all of this time when you could be kind of spreading things out and generating all types of different income, so that whom you can focus mawr on that trying to make a big song and get that two were going. If you have the If everything else is funding that, so it’s it’s very important to make these points now with streaming or I guess, licensing You’re not making a majority your money through royalties. Correct? Um, I mean, it depends
like you do a theme song for Hit show or something just takes off his broadcast on, like, prime time and stuff like that. You could make some toe like one of my friends. Adams L Kind. He’s a award winning ASCAP writer, for I think he made, like, the most 20 like, two years in a row or something. He did a bunch of the music for, um, those shows like Flavor of Love, VH one and you know, like during that time in the early two thousands whenever it came out and he straight told me like I won’t put his business out there, but he made a lot of money like a lot of money. I’ve been to his house, and it’s ridiculous. So I’ve seen that firsthand, and he’s just told me he was like, Yeah, dude, I didn’t even think like that was possible, you know? But it is also crazy because he owned. He got to keep the writer side. And I think the publisher side, you know, I think whoever he was working with on the show just maybe wasn’t aware of, like, not that money was. Now, whether that’s for, like, every song, I don’t know. But I know he mentioned it. Maybe like a couple that he got to keep, if not all, you know, I can’t remember the conversation, but hey, made a crazy amount. Didn’t go look at some things articles about like how much the friends theme song made. How much like Seinfeld Seinfield. So it just depends on that placement. It all comes down toe. How many times is it airing? What kind of is it on like a broadcast channel like NBC, ABC or sit, is it during prime time? Like once you start getting your ass kept, statements are being miners, he said. Whoever you’re with, it kind of shows it breaks it down to certain tears. I guess you want to say they call it credits and ask at least of how much that is worth. We’re being played for that time for have along. They use it all that stuff adds up, so But no, you can make you could make money. Do I know people who do sink and that’s all they do And they live very, very, very well off the sink. Feast to Okay, So the sink fees where you could make a lot up front One of my friends did like music for, I think was a Lincoln commercial. Whatever. Some car company I can’t remember off hand. And he was, you know, 50
50 k. Is that basically like the upfront? Yeah, that’s OK. So and that’s and that’s why I was gonna get where I was kind of taking this is I assumed you didn’t make Aton off of the royalties where you really made your dough. Was that upfront fee where you go? OK, they il 50 grand for this commercial, and then whatever royalties after, Yeah, I
mean, just on the back edges varies again by what it’s gonna be used for out of the tub. But, I mean, some of these national campaigns that air, you know, we get briefed me on this partner for stuff there. So I don’t know what I can like put out there, I guess. Let’s say I recently got one for, like, a furniture chain that was looking for a new jingle for their one of the new campaigns. Whatever. And the amount was like 40 K and then I have no idea what the backing would have been because I just I’m sure they would have showed it during like during the day on TV commercials on Internet, on radio, So out of it, something probably. Well, a nice jacket change, too. You know, we’ll check, but yeah, I think people kind of sleep on sink licensing, you know, because maybe they don’t want to be deemed as like, oh, selling out or being to corporate or whatever you want. The cause, maybe, Or this don’t know, like how much money is actually involved in it. Like there’s a lot like, uh, again, I won’t put my like any my friends business out. But I know Ah, a producer friend of mine who worked on a big record big record for ah, you know, ah, major artist. And it ends up being sink for, like, movie trailers like commercial. And he told me every time I got sink for, like, a movie trailer, it was like $300,000.
She was like a huge, huge record. Yeah,
And so obviously that money gets split between all the writers and everything. And so he was like, Yo, that record changed my life.
And this is why I want to have you on Because I don’t Honestly, I don’t think producers understand this mostly e g m producers. Here’s the thing is, if you’re in L. A. You might know all about this because it’s so much home hub. Yet most people in L. A are trying to be somewhat in the entertainment business, especially if you’re a musician. You want to be in that world, so you probably know somewhat about it. But that’s a very small majority of VTM producers. They’re spread out across the entire world all over the place. The Netherlands is like the E m hub, and I guarantee a lot of producers don’t know Aton about sink licensing because they’re just not involved in that world.
I mean, here’s something that I guess your listeners could. I mean, I’m assuming you’re listed probably like becoming PM producers or trying to get into a break into our house so they can build like a compilation. Ah, you know, e peer album of maybe like five or 10 Do strictly instrumental songs if they want, you know, just whatever. And then they can approach these companies that I spoke about, like position, music first, com. Um, West, one UK. All these and just kind of hit him up, and a lot of companies do have, ah, submit former something to go on there and you it may take a little bit for them to get back to you or whatever. They may not respond it off if it’s not what they’re looking for, but they may do a thing. And I’ve done this before early on in my licensing career to were, we’ll do like a copulation album of, like maybe just 10 hip hop songs or something. I worked on a project with some people who did 10 hip hop song they wanted, like American hip hop. That’s when they called it at the time, you know, and I’m still getting royalties from that and so they’ll buy, writes the album or work out a deal with their own part of it or something, you know, because obviously they got to get their cut for doing all the admin, your pitching in and doing all that stuff. Um, but that’s something that you’re listeners could do is I would definitely first build the work. So that way you can at least send it to him and see if that’s what they’re looking
good, good work. That’s important quality work. And then also, you don’t want to put your name on something that’s not quality, because those people will see the your name they most want. Um, yeah, if you send in, I guarantee you send in three bad songs in a row. They’re going to be like, yeah, don’t even open up Exactly. So make sure it’s fucking your best work and it’s like, get the okay from multiple producers like Oh, yes, this is shit that could be played out there. And even if someone did, let’s say someone did take it. And it’s not a good song and you hear it on a big fuckin project. For some reason, who knows why? Or they’re making fun of it somewhere. And your name is associated with that. That’s not a good place to be. Uh, yeah. I mean, it’s build.
Build a quality of work, you know? Definitely. I mean, you have tow think especially in the music licensing world. Things moved can move pretty quick. Like when she kind of get in there. So everything you deliver has to be top quality because I’ve been in situations before where they’re looking for a song and they need it by tomorrow. Mix Master, it is like literally dropping it in the edit bay. And that’s how you want approaches company, especially if you’re new. You want everything to sound like it could be on TV or movie right now. Today, if they have to drop it in, it’s already makes master whatever ready to go. And then the other thing, too, is learn how to make variations of that one song. So, like a lot of things, I’ll do some of these libraries and want like Okay, we got the full 2 to 3 minutes, four minutes on whatever. Now, can you make us like, 30 minutes or 32nd stingers or edits of it? 15 seconds. Singers at its a minute long stinger edit of it and like that is kind of like, um, yes, the best we could say that is like, if you watch reality TV, you kind of hear, like those transitions songs in the background are like those little quick clips of tension building for 15 seconds. And on it goes in the next, seeing whatever like those little at its two can add up money wise, so you just never know. But if you learn how to do those, then you’re ready and asset to him, too. They don’t have to be like, Oh, we don’t have any 30 seconds variations of the song. We’re not gonna take the time that it was gonna go to somebody else and get that
you can be working for these sink contracts while you don’t actually have a sink contract. So you want to be thinking like you could say, in a week I’m going to make five, just 10 songs, 2 to 3 minutes, four minutes And then, like you’re saying these little intermittent suspense clips that are just 30 seconds long, If that and just build up this back library because then you have if you have a back library of 50 of these songs, ready to go as soon as someone comes to you and they’re like, We need this tomorrow. Oh, don’t worry. I’ve got Give me 10 minutes. I’ll send all the stuff over to you. You’re done and those people are gonna look at you. Go. This is our guy. He’s fast, He’s efficient. He’s got great stuff and they don’t know that your they don’t know whether or not that’s a back library or you just came up with that on the that Have
them. It’s new. Yeah, and I’m doing it. It’s funny mention that I’m exactly in the process of doing that. Now I’m going through a lot of my back kind along for stuff that I haven’t that’s not signed anywhere. Assigned any agency, whatever and just doing that kind of if I feel like it’s a little dated right now, modernizing it and then making those edits, mixing the master just so I have it ready to roll. And then I’m still like pitching some of those works toe libraries and stuff and, you know, it’s it’s it’s always a hustle game. They might be like, Oh, you know, we’re kind of maxed out with medium tracks right now. I’ll go So one of the other libraries and be like, Hey, guys, you need And to me, it just back out along. I did it before. I’m just touching it up and trying to just get it out there something. Make some money, you know? So you just never know. Like that movie I did help fast last year. All that was, I think, literally a two minute e g m Q. And
it’s just the instrumental. And now it’s on
a major motion picture, and I’m gonna you know, they gave me a sink feet. That’s pretty nice. And I’m gonna make money on the back end for easy. Yeah, like a now to knock out like it’s during lunch Break.
Yes. So, producers, I know you’ve got hundreds of projects that are unfinished because we have all been I still did. I mean, I’m not producing as much, but I’ve got so many just like three weeks. I was just going through I projects from years ago. I was like, Oh, this is actually a good song like I want to do something with this, Go into those fix them cause you’ve learned a lot. If take a song six months ago, I guarantee you’ve learned so much more going there at it. Them maybe make it shorter, Turn it down to 2 to 3 minutes. Um, modern if it’s and yeah, there’s old they did, You know, if it’s dated, modernize it, get it mixed up and mastered and put it into your back catalog track that would take you 68 10 hours to create. Just took you an hour to just clean up. And you’re good to go. And now you’re recycling your projects and they might not be projects you would ever post out there or would send to a record label. But you can fix him now and put him in your catalog. And yeah, you can kind of get the ball rolling
on this. Yeah, and some people. So it was you mentioned about not maybe wanted to put it out, whatever. So some people I know that our you know, artists and they have, like, a genuine artist career that they have a certain kind of team or song that there right under. If there, if they want to do licensing, when they don’t want to do it under the same name, they’ll just create like another was, like, suited them or whatever you wanna call it like and just do it under that, you know, And so that kind of solves that problem. I guess they’re still get money so that they can focus, like on the true artist career what they want to do, versus kind of just writing for TV and film. And then some people just right, a dope album and a same couple approaching me like a man. We want to sing your stuff because album so great
Fuck. Look at daft punk like there are specific artists that will get hired to write the soundtrack for a movie. Daft Punk got hired to write Tron. They wrote every single piece in that movie. So much fucking money they got from that. Oh, my God! Probably high guarantee hundreds of millions for the upfront fees and then on top of whatever they’re getting in the in the back, because that shit is getting Stroh. My, it’s a crazy I love it won’t 400 millions, but I don’t know. It’s Disney. It is Disney. And it’s daft Funk. Maybe. I don’t know. I don’t know the number that high for sink fees, but it would be It’s
I mean, I’m sure is probably breaking a 1,000,000. Probably tens of millions when
they I guarantee they made a retarded him out. You
know, they made a lot of money. Don’t get me wrong like that, Specially like your license, you know? And then I wonder what the backend deal looks like to like to they get to keep the publishing or does Disney keep it? You know, like there’s somebody very
guy bet Disney keeps it. Yeah, well, they are, at least so let fight. That’s
another thing to let’s talk about that. So I mean, sometimes when you do, like, hired gigs for, um, you know, Fillmore Ah, commercial, whatever. Yeah, like they’re gonna They’re kind of privy to that. So they’re gonna put in like, well, you keep your writer share and we’ll keep the publishing in. They tried to do this 50 50 split. You know, it’s a 50 50 thing, and some library agencies do that to like they’ll be like art. What? We’re gonna split everything 50 50 like you know, Well, we’ll split the sink fee for the masters up front. And then we we keep publishing. You keep writer share. So it just depends what you negotiate or who you’re working with, what kind of contract you get. Like there’s always you could always negotiate everything.
Now let’s say you actually let’s let’s go back to your for what was your first big project that you, I would say to
me, won’t like what I consider part one of the first big ones. I’ve had a play I had place with before this, like TV shows and everything like that. But this one is one actually did with my business partner, who I run the Neverland retreats thing with is ironically, we probably did it like 78 years ago. We had a theme song for ah, show that was on Oxygen Network. It was, ah, reality show they had on their coat like Brooklyn 112 to 3 or something, and it was kind of like a Jersey shore Okay show. And so they approach us to do you like the theme song for that? And it was cool because you would, like, see it on their promo commercials on Oxygen, then eventually, like MTV Canada. I think about the rights of that show. Aired it. So we’ve got to be on that one, too. So that was a nice little chunk of change for just a small step with a song that we did right? And then And then we got the ASCAP royalties for that. Well, I
want to talk about is as a producer and musician or artists, the the biggest thing you need to learn and understand and know, I think, is negotiating unless you have an agent or a manager, which I don’t think they’re very ELISA managers. Not necessary, I think agent might be, but usually you have a set contract that you set with the agency. So you do need to know negotiating skills and how to get the better end of the deal for yourself because that’s important. They’re making plenty of money on whatever project they’re working on. They don’t need to screw you over. Did you get fucked over in negotiation for that? Um, not for that one per se, but
I looking back when I first started early on. I mean, there’s some situations where I’m like
I should have. Yeah, I know you could. You have made
more money than I did, and I just didn’t know the right questions to ask. I don’t really understand licensing at that time. This was like, you know, 10 years ago.
So let’s let’s get into that because I think that’s important. If the producers were getting into this, I don’t want to send them in where they go, this is going to be huge show whether it is or not. I’m just gonna accept whatever the hell they give me, because you don’t want to walk into that that mindset, because that’s how you get fucked up. Well, I mean, this I think I remember, is
how many parts of the song are there when it comes to like licensing. You have the master, which is the actual audio recording of it. You have. You know that the composition part, which is like the writing, sharing the publishing share kind of so out of those three parts, like for what you can out of that, you know, in the sense that you wrote the song, you should never really be giving up your writer share just off the bat publishing. That’s when there’s like, you know, obviously whoever’s helping you distribute a song or get it out there a place, whatever, they’re probably gonna argue for some of the publishing, and that’s just how it is. And then you gotta fight for that. But it doesn’t hurt to just ask replace the song recently with a label overseas. At the end of last year, me, one of my co writers and they were trying to, like, swindle some publishing or whatever me like that. And I said, Well, yeah, I’m not giving it anyone. I was nice is literally like a one line email All said was like, Yeah, I’m not gonna give you any publishing for this. And then they responded,
Okay, yeah, that was it. Like So it doesn’t hurt to ask
you, you know, you’re not don’t think you’re gonna look like the bad guy, especially if the other party is as business as they should be. They’re just gonna consider it part of negotiations. You. I think that’s what a lot of new artists are becoming producers or whatever. They’re just scared toe like ask because they don’t want to ruin the deal or so to speak. Whatever. And it’s just like no, like, put those things out there like their times I’ve ate up the label and just be like, Hey, man, you you said you’re gonna like admin publishing on this. Like, where is the check for the publishing? We stop God, it’s been, like literally two years at this point, you know, or like even for our statements that were due for just the mat, like the master side royalties that we would be getting them like a you’re supposed to send out every quarter. We haven’t got it. Yeah, and I would hit up the other people that worked on the songs and be like, Hey, did you guys get your part? Whatever they’re like No. And I’m like, OK, so no one’s bothered to ask. It’s just I’m the only one that’s gonna speak up for us. I like I’ll do it like I’m not scared. Like the business deal. They always money
artists. You need to understand this. If you’re not getting your check, ask for it. It’s your fucking money. There’s a contract in place for a reason but record labels publishing cos they bank off of you not asking. They hope you don’t ask. So the and they most of time they know you’re not gonna ask. I had my, uh, my buddy, um, who was on the first episode he was He was making a living just selling hip hop tracks. It’s all night was selling this lease and beats whatever. Yeah, uh, and, um, he did a song. He did a couple of projects for Universal. One of them, I think I don’t think has been released yet. But that took, I think, eight months for him to get the fucking check for that. Yeah, it was ridiculed, and he had to go back and forth with them. Where’s the money? Where’s the money? Where’s the money? And they’re hoping you’re not going to say anything. And you’re like, just take the credit like they’re hoping you’re just going to take the credit and that’s it. You can’t be coward, vice business. No. Have to fucking ask for what is yours. And it’s the same with negotiating. And like we said, the worst thing they’re gonna say is now if they say no and you could say No. Backer. Yeah, Yeah. Or in ago traits. Negotiate. It’s called negotiating for reasons. Trying to get a fair share. Your all trying toe wins some way. And if if they’re being too difficult, you can. I mean, you can always pull out of it or you can say, OK, well, can we increase the upfront fee? Give me more money up front. And yes, you can take the rights for this section publishing or people
that have done that to They’re like All right, well, if you’re gonna keep publishing, I need X amount of dollars. My create my stink fee increases by 23 times now and sometimes have gotten those checks. And I’m like, OK,
well, here’s the thing, too. Is if you are negotiating that way and going okay. I want the sink fee to be higher go so high that it’s an embarrassing number like it’s you’re embarrassed to say the number because financially asked for that amount because this is what’s gonna happen. They’re either a going to say yes and you’re going to like Holy fucking shit. I can’t believe they said that Yes to that, or they’re going to negotiate lower to what you were actually wanting some more realistic number. Yeah, let’s say you’re getting like, I don’t know. Let’s say it’s a big project or I don’t know how what the cost of a big project is. But it’s like you’re gonna get 5000 for the sink fee and they go well, were we want to take all the publishing rights, but you’re trying to take some of them and you go, OK, fine. You can have the publishing rights say something like, I need 30 grand go fucking ridiculous, because if you’re like well, I’d like double. I’d like 10,000 that there can take publishing. But you say 30 Grant, they say no and negotiate for a lower number. They might say something like 15 and you could go now 25. Yeah, And now you’re getting even more than what you thought you knew. Everything is negotiable for here. Question. For you. For your friend who did the stuff at Universal. Was it for, like, a label type stuff? Or was it for, like, isis for labels? So I could say from, like,
my experience in the music industry, Ivan No, I don’t think I’ve ever had to When it comes to, like, a sink fee or something for music licensing or something like that, I’ve never had to like how these companies for money. It’s only the label stuff, which
is Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So stink fees. They usually I mean, cause usually they’re
paying before it like heirs. Or they’re paying, like, right after it airs or whatever you know, like that. And I’ve never had to Yeah, I’m trying to think I don’t think I’ve ever had a like now I’ve had to go fight with, like, ASCAP or something to be like a This show aired last year, and I have got no royalties from Where’s that money? You know, I wanna go do that. Like, I’ll audit my ask up statements and be like, I know this three or 4/4 ago and I still haven’t got the money. And then you got maybe check what, like the production company? I did it to see if they turned on cue sheets and that becomes a mess. But for like the actual, like upfront sink for you, whatever. I don’t think I’ve ever had, like, go hound people for
fucking record labels are, I don’t know, a record. Labels could be an issue. Ah, lot there. I mean, they really like to fuck over artists, and it’s That’s why you’re seeing so many more people self distribute because you self distribute. You get 100% of the most of the time, depending on what distribution company you’re going with. Um, And so if you do get that 1,000,000 streams, you’re getting the full 1,004,000 trims on Spotify your and get the full four grand that you deserve at that. So that’s that’s why self distributing is very important. But
and then, if you decide to sink it out to something, if you own the Masters whenever then you’re getting
even more money. This is why it’s so important to own 100% of your song, because you can send that out to whoever the fuck you want, depending on what I mean. Obviously, if you self distribute and then go somewhere to try to license it, there’s gonna probably a contract involved with that word, and there’s certain
terms, too, so it’s always just like I mean, I can’t There’s not like a blanket statement Yeah, for every company and everything like that. So it’s just like you can release
your album independently. And I mean, there’s a of
the companies out there now where if you’re I guess, like a a dope enough artists at the kind of party with you and you still get to keep your masters. I think United Masters is the company that does it. I want to say a wall. I think you to keep your masters. I’m not 100% sure, but it’s worth looking at. And they’re kind of like help you build promotion around you and do other things like that from what I understand, you know, and I think you still keep the rights to your masters. And maybe if they help seeing it somewhere, maybe they’ll take a percentage of the same fear, something I don’t know, but they’ll look at it, but it’s definitely ah better such a situation. I think if you’re independent artists, to maybe do that route vs like just immediately signing with the major and then you don’t you know you’re not gonna own your masters unless you somehow work that into your deal. A lot of artists are getting privy to that. And they’re kind of going for that now. Like, you know, like that you have the whole, like, Taylor Swift debacle with, You know, if you heard about that, were like the label that she was with solder Masters to Scooter, Bronze Investment Group or something. And because she didn’t owner Masters for 1st 6 albums, label does because they paid to have it produced and all that, which I mean that that’s that will standard record practice at the time. Really think about it like the labels on the Masters, because they’re the ones putting all the money to invest and create it like they’re hiring the producers. And that of the day, you know, all that stuff. So, you know, But she still owns, like her writing part of it. The composition part, you know, Unless unless she sold her publishing on something else, you know, there was still own a writer share. Now,
do you do any? Um, have you done any radio licensing? Like what? You mean like, uh, have you done jingles for radio play or like, what kind of is there? I wonder if maybe some sex M r owner of some of the stuff I’ve done has been used for. Really? I don’t think it has. Honestly has I just haven’t noticed. I haven’t No US. Yeah, I have no idea what kind of money is still involved with radio, because I feel I mean, radios just well, usually, if you do like, if you
sink, you mean for like, radio player, You mean like for like, sink for like, radio, like for ads. And
usually when you do, um if you do like some specific for, like, a jingle for a company or a theme or something like that, like their contract has it majority the time where it’s all inclusive. So they’re gonna say what rights they want, so it usually includes, like radio, TV, web. So I’m sure maybe maybe some stuff I has been on there, I just I don’t And it may be having noticing on the statement whenever I usually buy out the rights for all that in most cases. And then there’s essences. We’re like, you know, you have new technology that comes out that doesn’t include it, and you have to go back to re negotiate, for example, like that’s always interesting to like. So, for example, if you go
okay put you a good position because you go Oh, I’m one adala bigger. Dr. Marie Negotiator, Because you can see how many you can negotiate where they just won’t use it. So, for example, like remember that show like Dawson’s Creek back the day like I don’t wanna live from, like,
that theme song that was like it was hand in hand with a show. Really? So if you watch it now, like on Netflix or who? Whatever, you It’s a different song because whenever I think when they negotiated that contract like there wasn’t streaming there wasn’t Internet like it was as we know it today. So they didn’t cleared like that streaming clause in there. So now they had to like And I guess by that time the song was so popular. Exhibit knew it and they were probably like, We want x amount of dollars If you want to zafir stream now fuck that. We’re just getting cheaper. Same thing with the other show, I think was, ah, married with
Children. The how Yeah, love and like and I forget who is it like some natural somebody? I’m not sure I can’t remember,
but, um, classic song again like that in the same thing. If you watch it like on a streaming service, it’s I think it’s a different song because of the same situation. So I think now, like people, Cos when we’re negotiating these contracts now, we kind of put that clause in there to be like are any future technology It’s gonna include that, you know? So that’s little things like that man just got to be aware of, because I can really change your money. Yeah, like, you know,
I mean, if you don’t know a music lawyer, definitely find someone if you can buddy up with them. And if you have a contract, were like, Hey, would you mind just looking over this? Music lawyers write those views of contracts and they will put fishy lawyer fucking wording in there that you might not be able to understand. So if you have someone who can look over and just make sure you’re not getting screwed, I mean, you got
to think these companies just like everybody else, like me and you, they want the best deal they can get and they’re usually come out, like with the most aggressive deal right off the bat, obviously. And, you know, if you sign great. That was me. Like I said, I learned 10 years ago I probably got decked out of some money just cause I was like, Oh, man, it was so happy that my music was gonna be on TV, that I just I didn’t know better. And I was just like, all right, cool, Like, luckily, it wasn’t like a lot of money like it wasn’t like some theme song blew up. I missed out, like in a $1,000,000. I mean, if I had to put a dollar amount on and probably maybe a total of, like, 10 grand or something like that, that’s over, like, years and years and years. It’s not like immediately in front. So lesson learned, You know me, I feel like I got off easy over, you know, a few years, period. I probably sat on 10 K, but you know, now I know in the future when it had a better negotiate those deals and stuff, So I’m lucky I didn’t get, like, totally just like raped in some deal, like six figures or something like that, you know?
Right, Right. Well, that’s why we’re having this episode to teach. Because I’m sure there’s a producer listening who will who might eventually get involved in licensing, whether you know, you’re gonna do it now or in two years. But if you have this resource to look back and go all Thank fucking God and listen. Yes, because you don’t. I mean, running into this blind can be chaotic
address, But even like, I mean, you may produce is making involving licensing, not even know, in a sense. Like, have you signed to, like, a publishing company, one of their jobs? Just exploit that composition. Most publishing companies have a state Department, and they’re just trying to pitch thing to whatever, you know. So, you know, it’s good just to make good quality music and just get it out there. And until you do have, like a publishing team that’s working for you, you can do it yourself.
So, what got you started in sync? Licensing? How did you decide you were going to go into this? One of my
mentors, like, 10 years ago kind approach me and was like a this company and working with was looking for just like hip hop beats for TV shows. Can you help us out? And, like, write some songs? I was like, Okay, you know, I don’t really know the ins and out of it again for whatever. So she connected me and I started doing that, and I saw a cow kind of lucrative. It could be. And I was like, Oh, yeah, let
me do this for a little bit. And, you know, I still
do the label stuff as well as I generally like making. Sometimes I want to make stuff that’s not necessarily just geared at licensing. It was that. And then also, like I said, I’ve never had to chase a company for my stinky. I feel like I can’t. I have. I just can’t remember it. Whereas with dealing with label Dude, I gotta like Hey, where’s my check? Yeah, where’s my money? Hey, we’re stats for this because I don’t trust you. You know all those things and also would just move so quick. You gotta think there’s new TV shows episode to stop being aired every day. How many movies were being made here. Have any YouTube shows like you can license to YouTube shows, whereas the labels are kind of putting out. They put out music every day. But you gotta think how hard you are fighting for those spots.
How many are they releasing A day or week now you’re competing against those producers on the same label, right? Are those
teams camps like that? Artists camp, like, you know, are there publisher whoever whereas literally. And it’s not just even us, like you can have stuff girl worldwide, like my songs that I’ve had with that they want to see its first calm that are west. When you came one of those to licensing agencies, I’ll get my statements and they’ll be stuff that’s in like that. Music will be in Australia will be in Germany on TV shows that have seen that have sink did or whatever you know. So it’s that it’s not just like shows in us. It’s a worldwide thing all over the world, new shows airing every day. That’s endless possibilities for have your music played in it
credits. Do you build up those fucking cracks to, and especially with
TDM? I mean, that’s just basically it’s instrumental cues, in a sense, you know. So like I said, go listen to these reality shows and the sports shows and how much there’s music playing in the background like I feel like 80 90% of the time. So just build those cues up, having placed in their do definitely, you know, get that. Get that income while you’re waiting. You know, if you’re trying to be like this big touring deejay or whatever, okay, we’ll do this and that, like in the connections you make doing sink might actually help you with your career. Or like I met people who had big aspirations to be some touring deejay or whatever the night started See how much money they could make on this side. And they’re like, Oh, no, I screwed. I’m just gonna do this cause I could just work at home and just chill out. Hang out, you know, because maybe like they’re a different place in life now, they got married. Their kids like I could just do this and hang out my home studio and just make these tracks and send them off. And then the money.
That’s exactly that was my you know, since 2013 I was thinking I’m gonna be a fucking touring deejay all this shit, and that’s why I want to do. And I got burnt out so quickly. Yeah, I met some more people involved with the industry, and they were telling me what it was like. And I was like, Ah, this doesn’t seem as glorious. Is your videos on YouTube that festival show you And so I kind of got tired of producing. You know, I’ve got a full fucking studio. Producing is always gonna be there. I still do produce. Um, it’s just more for the love of making music now, rather than trying to get all these big fans. And so that’s why I started my mixing mastering company. I can sit at home, work on other. I can still work on badass fucking songs that are dope. I can help make them sound even better and work with these great producers and clients all from my home. And I want, you know, I want the worry about making sure that 100,000 fans are gonna like my new song that’s coming out. That could be very stressful. That could be a new
ones built for that game. I know like me. I mean, we talked about the very beginning. That thing like I don’t necessarily like attention. For me to be in the spotlight of something is like you said, have 100,000 or 1,000,000 fans. I’m like, I don’t know.
It’s a lot of pressure. And when those people are expecting your next song to be your best one, it’s difficult to get in that head space of being that creative. And that’s how you get Writer’s block is having this pressure. And when you get to that top tier two, you’ve got record labels, agents, managers are breathing down their necks and get this done. Get this done to get this done and quickly realize, Wow, what am I doing? Am I even writing music’s? I like it Or am I just writing it toe? Appease this fucking person and you might not even be writing a song you give a shit about. That’s if you’re cool with that. If you’re cool playing that game, playing those people’s gains and being a touring artists and some people, some people love that life. Now there’s nothing bad
to say about that like that’s awesome. I think like we need those people that to entertain me of Ah, I don’t know. I’m content just like working on things. Like I said, I generally like working on stuff for movies are ads or something like that because I’m part of them. Creating something like especially moving is live. Yeah, like being part of that team that’s like, O help Do the score for that help do that theme song
when there are people who I’m sure you’ve done music for movies in Where They Fucking That’s their favorite movie. And with that comes this is my favorite fucking soundtrack and you can be a part of that. I was.
I was really blessed to work on those two horror movies last year because I’m like a big or a movie buff fan. And so for me to be, like, able to be involved with, especially that dark Web one, because I think oh, I think originally was It was unfriended, it came out, was the original. Yeah, came out a couple years ago, and then this was a sequel and I was just such a fan of that movie that for us to be able to like. The ending score for the sequel
was Dose. So what’s the process behind licensing, attract, like, what are the what from from the moment you write your song and finish it? What did this? What steps do you take to get that track license look? So depends. So say, for example, for that movie like they music
supervisor approached me and said, Hey, we need a certain song that fits this kind of theme. Here’s the Here’s the feeling we’re going for So it just really starting from that and creating it and then sending back getting notes and then obviously finalizing, like the legal aspects of it. Like, you know, we get this, you get this problem So there’s that way. Or like I said, you can kind of just create work specifically for licensing and then pitch it to agencies and shop home to our just having your catalog ready to go. So when you were, you do get that email for music supervisor or an industry connect, and they’re like, Hey, do you have anything in your catalog? It’s like this. You ready? You know, you have it ready to ship. I would say, like when I’m writing for licensing. There are certain themes that I try to keep if it’s not like an instrumental track. Of course, like about what song with lyrics, I try to keep certain teams coming Home is a big team in licensing because if you listen to like a lot of movies or commercials, you know they’ll have that reminiscent seen about somebody coming home like maybe from the military or something and seeing their family and Amy Holmes a big theme right now, like anything anthemic is just hot. You know, it’s always gonna be forever high like it in the thing you think about like a Coke commercial or something, or like a World Cup FIFA type situation, like, you know, things like that, Um, another one. Right now that’s real big. Is women empowerment eso like I’ve been writing some songs with my co writer. She’s a phenomenal female senior, just amazing. And so we’ve been writing things like that because you’re going to get those calls were like a man. We’re we need something for this ah, female
anthem for whether it’s a movie or a product or a commercial or
something like that. So just to have those, I mean just school. If you listen, let’s go. Google, like common themes, use for music licensing. There’s like probably between five and 10 like coming home empowerment determination.
You know, there is kind of, like, general themes that are always going to be use right or products or being a rebel like that. Always gonna be like
Mountain Dew or fucking car commercial. Like so, having those kind of start thinking like that, you you can write at curing to those things. Okay? And it might be a thing to wear, like maybe we have a song that’s that We just written having a catalogue, and somebody wants to license it, and it’s maybe 90% there of what they want, but it’s now it’s now. It’s an eye for a specific thing, though. Ask us to come back, and since you mentioned process, they’ll ask us to be like, Hey, can you change like these lyrics to be like this? Because we wanted toe ringing in the ears of customers that you know this for certain campaign, Where were you know? So then you can kind of like fine tune the song for that specific thing if it hasn’t been licensed anywhere else. And like no one owns the final, you know, master of it, I guess you want to say so, Yeah, like, just go to research on and just listen. Listen, Like when you’re listening to commercials and ads and movies, you’ll hear like you start to pick it up like second. Like certain type song types that are being used or whatever. You know,
we it are the lunch that we had, cause we we talked a lot about licensing. Um, one day I mentioned was sound stripe. I don’t know of you. I can’t remember if you were like, Oh, yeah, I have heard that. But it basically to cite you can put in an application as an artist. And I think you upload your songs there and I use sound stripe for the especially for the theme of the podcast. Um, I pay $15 a month. I can go on there and license any track that I want. That’s crazy. And the artists go on there and they can upload their tracks. And I’m not I don’t have no idea what the payout Yeah, Artists. Do you know of any other sites like that? Are you involved in any other sites like that? Because I think there’s a big opportunity for its. It’s funny
you mention that I literally just got like, Ah, a $25 PayPal payment from some company. And I guess I had put music on their site light years ago. That’s a liver. Got about it. I think it’s company called, like micro Audio. And I guess it’s somewhere Like what? And I just forgot. I got an email. I was like, Oh, shit, I forgot that was even on there. I I just have that little that one track on there, but they’re so micro audios one. I mean, you mentioned that one, um, you can do packs for, like, companies like sounds. It sounds like comments play spices, a big one that I see like people go on there and they’ll they’ll make packs and sample
packs. Yeah, and the packs.
And they usually get like I’ve known one of my ah friends. They’re a duo. Idiom do actually named Bronze Well, and I think they’re based on their inherent Austin still. And they did a pack for them. And, you know, they kind of told me the financial whatever. It was not bad, like so you get like on their deal, you know, you get money up front and then you get royalties on the back end. For how many people, I guess, downloaded or something. I’m not sure how it works, but that’s another revenue stream that, you know Edie and producers can do a build sample pack.
Yeah, well, that’s that’s I want to get someone on the show who makes a living or has made money off of creating sound packs and pre setbacks because again, that’s yeah, that’s a whole other feel that you know, the revolution, you. It’s a very creative one to, um anyways, because I think I think for ADM producers, there’s a good chunk of money to be made in those kinds of sites because the kinds of people who are going on those sites are other creators. There. You two people who a lot of this stuff they have. They have ads on their video, so they need to license music in order to put on their, um, podcasts. There’s a lot of different creators that need these kinds of tracks, and it’s so much easier to just go onto a site like that, pay $15 a month licence your licence attract and you’re good to go. That’s crazy. I wonder how much the payout is in. Yeah, I’m not sure, I don’t know. But if that the thing is, is you can have multiple projects on there that are I mean, you could Let’s say you just put one song on there, but it’s used by 100 100 different projects. Yeah, so? So when you’re getting a payoff for each one of those 100 But the thing is, is your name is on the track, and if it’s a really good track and it’s being played on some YouTube fucking stars, shit, I’m and I think a lot of the way it’s up to use. Some of these songs are independently released to so meaning like the theme song that I have on my podcast, and I think you can look it up on Spotify and actually played on there. Okay, so basically what that means is, if you’re an artist, you’re wanting to be an artist. You consign upon these sites, put your tracks on there. Let’s say some big YouTube star uses that track someone. All they have to do is use What’s it called thinking? Sam. They can choose. Am your track, Find it Now add you to a playlist or they ask the creator. They comment on it. Someone knows the song they posted. And now you’re getting hundreds of thousands of plays a month because your song was added on one of these. Yeah, Stars videos all from just putting it on. Ah, one of these licensing site. Yeah, you could think of situations where something like a song is been in a TV show
or film and it blows up because people were like, we always that fucking song like I mean, when you think about let’s take like that friends theme song, for example. That was just, um, the snippet they did for the for the show. And then people like it so much they had to go back and do a full song. Yeah, you know. Then it went on the radio. You know, you just never know, like those situations where can blow up like that
so you can like if you’re wanting to be an artist. This is why licensing is, I think, a feel that a lot of producers are overlooking I don’t know about. And if they know about it and they can get into it and they confined their corner of the market and make a good amount of money or at least get connections to be on these big projects that can directly funnel into your being a full time producer and being a touring artists like you want,
you’re getting money up front. You know, you could hopefully getting a sink fee and all that stuff, and then you’re getting a new audience. So it’s like a win
win. Do you know about fuck? I can’t remember the name of the damn band. You watch stranger things.
Uh, nobody talk about the guys. I think there are a basin of awesomeness
here. Yeah, they’re shop there, dude. They’ve got the I think the head dude in the band or wherever he’s gotta since shop here. So shop here in Austin. I mean, like, if you’re gonna go by sent there, you spend minimum like a grand ocean. You’ve got a synth in there with, like, 15 grand. They crazy modular and analog Zentz it is. You go in there and you could just being there for hours fucking around with the sense they got so many. They were I don’t think they were a big band at all, but I didn’t know him before. Stranger thinks exactly they did the themes on stranger things. I’m pretty sure they do the entire soundtrack. They are like an 80 synth pop band. So I mean, that’s that right? There is a perfect example of blue upon the biggest show on Netflix. If you, I mean, stranger things has got to be the biggest show on Netflix. And I sure they’re making a ridiculous amount of money for royalties. So what would you say to producers? Who they their They’re buying into everything we’re saying. They love it. What? Their next step, What do they do? What would you do if you were just starting out knowing what you know now?
I mean one. If you don’t have the word, create the work and make sure it’s high quality and you can go like the great thing is you can go on these sites, you can go on a pretty short position music dot com are like Look up spirit music production, music. Um, look up first, calm and West one UK and you can go look through their actual catalogs. And this is the same thing of music supervisor would do is they would log on the sides of to look in the license stuff from them, go to the catalogue to find, like medium tracks after looking for a needy mq or whatever, and you can see like what they have in their catalog and be like Does my work car up to this isn’t at this quality, or you could be like, Hey, they have a lot of, ah, this certain type of medium genre, but they don’t have any of this and this is kind of hot right now. And email it would be like, Hey, I hear some work that I have of this. This is if you’re looking for, you know, and approach him like that like that sometimes what I’ll do is I’ll see, like, what don’t you have? And do I have that already, or do I know I can do it really, really good and I’ll come into that just never know, like I literally emailed bust one UK probably collided with, um, you know, like years ago and stuff. I just emailed him recently again. And I was like, Hey, guys, I have this compilation of, like, hip hop que instrumentals for, like, reality TV. You guys, you know, you’re sitting there like, ah, you know, were kind of foolin that run out. All right, cool. Nori’s and the little hit me up, like, two weeks later. But, like, you know what? After all, we might need that. So hang on to it. We’re about to go on European European vacations, like, a lot longer than us, Vegas. So, like, we’ll get you up in, like, a couple weeks and, you know, just hang on, sit tight. And I’m like, All right, cool. Just from reaching out. And I was cool when they said no, Like, some people will tell when they hear. No, they get really defensive. Ever. And I was just like, all right, cool, guys. No worries. Like you have any other things. That and also because I’ve made them money from the first work I did with him. So, like, of course, they’re gonna be cool with me. I’m gonna be like, Yeah, this guy has quality stuff.
I think that Ah, I love that If I think of what they don’t have, that’s hot right now. That’s exactly so. My buddy Danny from the first episode, who sells hip hop beats he had like a He does a lot of tight beat stuff and he had Ah, I forgot what rapper he said it was, But he had made a track that was a tight beat for that rapper, and it didn’t sell. A year later, the rapper really starts to blow up and boom, it started selling off the shelf was releasing it out. You just never know, man. Just
gotta always be always be ready and always be so I guess, to answer your question. I mean, the first step is one be able to create said content, really be able to do it at a high quality level. And if you’re not there yet, then just really study up on watch. YouTube tutorial study, Music theory. You know, learn about mixing and mastering to is once you have it, then go do your research. What companies can I approach? What they need is my stuff good enough for that. And then once those conversations star is three like really understand the business aspect of it. Like go read articles about music licensing and see if you could find some example contracts online and study What? You know what? All those parts are like the master of the writing in the publishing share. And then you know those tidbits about like I mentioned earlier, Like what aspects of media do I need to learn about? A. Is if they’re trying to license this, is it gonna cover just radio? Is it gonna cover just TV cause that’s a different price. And if it is going to cover all three like TV, radio, Internet, and be worldwide versus just be regionally or whatever, you know. So all those things factor into what you should be your price point Exactly. So that’s really I mean, that’s, you know, build your talent if you’re not there yet to do the research. And three learned the business, the specific acts aspects of what that contract would entail. So you don’t kind of don’t get fucked over
now, do you? Go by Sam Heights as when you’re doing these licensing contracts. How do you or do you have a business name? I mean,
I go by just my legal name, cause I just do it as a right now. Still partnership db A.
Okay, so that that was going bar. You are so ready to turn it into L. A. You’ve probably made, you know, Yeah, I
want my taxes issue like, especially since I wrote Neverland retreats as well. In my business partner, I was like, even my c p a. I was like,
Yeah, you should, like, make this like it’s getting foreskin. Creates a transition else. He said That’s important to when you get involved. When with ease licensing deals, make sure your set up you’re you’re registered business. You want to be a registered business because if you’re not registered in something blows up, then your tax situation can get really fuzzy. Yeah. Luckily, I mean, I was able to write off much stuff this year because we you know, whether it’s spinning money for music
gear are you know, the company stuff was helpful this up, but yeah, no, I would say from coming from someone who was doing stuff and technically still is. I guess I’m on the individual music side as, ah DBS So proprietorship. And then we started the LLC for the Neverland retreat, saying, I see, like all the tax benefits that has for that kind of thing to where I’m like Oh, yeah, Now I need to make a jealousy And it just would make my life easier probably. But that’s the other thing. Like, if you’re not, if you’re not running your thing like a business, you should be, because that’s one of the main things you’re gonna get. Like so many tax. Be able. Write things off, get tax breaks. And
if you register yourself is the business all anything you buy for your production, you can write it all off. You can write your educational books off. There’s so many fucking things you can write out right off, a long as you’re keeping track of those receipts. And, like I do all of my business through. If I buy anything for my business or I receive any money for my business, it all goes through my PayPal business account. All that shit is tracked. It’s all in there. So if I ever, if I ever buy something I print out the receipt and I put her the invoice, and I put it in a specific folder. I have all this shit organized, so once I do get a c p a. I’m good to go. And, you know, I wouldn’t worry about a c p a. If you haven’t made at least minimum $5000. Don’t worry about C. P because you weren’t gonna It’s really just when it
starts running in tow, like you need someone to help you really go through it. E But I do like you like I mean, I could I run the books for our company and I keep it all organizing stuff to work. So what I do bring this DP It’s more like just her double checking in and also like, Can you find me some tax benefits? And I baby overlook keeping your things in order just and their software stuff out. Like I will use QuickBooks online for business.
Yeah, that’s what I That’s the no, I don’t use QuickBooks. I use, um uh Go Daddy Bookkeeping. That one’s fucking great. Yeah, So there’s there’s
tools out there to help it, and I mean, like you said. Like I was able to write off thousands of dollars dollars just on my personal side for this last year, which helped me save literally 1000
1000. So when you’re when you’re running as a fucking business and especially if you hit a dollars, let’s say you start licensing now and you’re not register is a business and or even if you are and you don’t have a C p A and you do your first year and you manage to give big fucking project where you get a $40,000 check, you will get fucked. So in taxes, so there’s there’s there’s
a lesson I learned hard way. So I did get, like, a big first check, like, you know, probably eight years ago or something doing this. And
you probably didn’t put anything outside know, didn’t know, didn’t know man didn’t know about how the tax thing worked, you know, because I’m a younger kid and you got some money
and you know, when the tax man comes to collect next year, you’re like, Oh, shit, I owe 30% of that check taxes, you know, And I wasn’t keeping tracks really book, So there’s probably stuff I couldn’t rode off to bring that balance down that I just Well, fuck, I don’t know. Those receipts are and know where that I probably paid cash for that shit. I have no idea. Like
you need to be organized. It’s It’s extremely important. I know. With go Daddy bookkeeping. Every quarter I get an update on what? My tax, Because it funnels, it connects with PayPal. So every penny that goes through PayPal gets thrown through. QuickBooks are go Daddy bookkeeping. And then they’ll give me an estimate for taxes every quarter. If you do a project, it’s safe to take, like, tell your sent out of that. I was, Yeah. Put put that aside into whatever saved. Like the other thing is, get it till I have PayPal and a biz and a business bank account, which is basically savings. So I take that I take a percentage out of my pay pal account every month, and I put that in that savings, and that’s just getting thrown in there for that taxis. And just in case, that’s my tax money. All right, Here you go. Here’s your track. Well, if that doesn’t come or It’s a lot less than I think. Now you get a big bonus for the end of the year.
No, it’s 100% like in Ah, yeah, I mean, that’s great. Don’t don’t be like me and learn the hard way. Luckily, it wasn’t like like it was a pretty nice check, but it was enough to also me like, Oh, shit. Like now I have nowhere to live, right? But it still hurt my pocket a little bit. So I was like,
Oh, yeah, sweet man. Well, I think that’s pretty much it. For the most part. I mean, we covered like everything, at least to get a producer started and kind of what? The world of licensing his browser. Are there any closing words you’d like to say any of it? And I feel like we covered a lot, man. And there’s just do research online, like the age that we live in. Now you can just l